Without seeing the picture, what I can say is that when I go to African countries I dress like the people there because I identify with them.
I think it’s only bad If you mock them.
Why if people paint themselves as if they were people of type X is bad, but when men dress themselves as a women it’s not bad? That’s contradictory.
What might answer your question is that IF in a country people traditionally paint themselves as X to mock X, then the natural reaction would be to classify it negatively.
But in a country or in a time where people do this out of identification, I don’t see it as a problem.
Morals are specific to countries and times, it’s not universal and atemporal
Because intellectually lazy people want simple ways to decide if something is good/bad without having to actually think about a specific situation themselves.
Are you asking if coloring your face is generally racist? Or are you asking about that particular photo? If you’re asking about that particular photo and you can’t tell, then idk how you can’t tell
Race is a political concept. It has no scientific basis so it’s not possible to declare any given person as white, black or whatever.
On the other hand, it is abundantly obvious from outward appearances that some individuals genetic heritage is geographically rooted. Those differences were used to create the political narrative of racism that justified the exploitation of Africa, America, etc. Among the many colonial-era atrocities were genocide and slavery.
There’s a lot of guilt and shame around this topic for white people, particularly white Americans. I’m not convinced that black people care more about blackface than white people do. I personally don’t have a problem with blackface or whiteface but I wouldn’t do it. There’s not much to gain and I don’t want to upset people. I felt uncomfortable enough dressing up as woman (I’m a European white guy) because I looked ridiculous, dressing as a black woman might be a bridge too far for me.
In addition to the other comments, we should note that the photo in question is referencing the OJ Simpson murder case, a very high profile and racially charged trial among the public in the U.S.
It’s racist because it’s racist. It has historically been used in a racist manner, and that’s socially recognized. So, if you do it now, it’s interpreted as racist.
(Much like the swastika is a hate symbol because the swastika is a hate symbol. It has been used as such and now it’s socially recognized as such (even though there’s nothing inherently bad about a bunch of geometric lines (and, in fact, was a positive symbol for the first 5,000 years of its use)).)
Let’s reclaim it then, use both Swastikas and blackface as positive symbols. Continuing to refrain from them because you think someone might interpret it the wrong way does nothing to normalise them again, if that is a long-term goal.
Yes. How did you know. 🤦♂️
I genuinely wanted to know why is this act considered racist. And got explained very well in the comments - no thanks to you.
When your grandparents were young, racism was still considered somewhat normal. And in cartoons, popular media, etc… there was a particular depiction of people with a dark skin tone that was used in a derogatory manner.
Recreating this appearance on someone’s face was later termed “blackface”. And less complete variants of it are still considered offensive by some.
I can’t place myself in that perspective, but I think I’m lucky not to have been part of that culture.
Tl;Dr: blackface has an extremely racist history in the US and is almost universally frowned on, even if you’re doing it out of genuine admiration for a black person.
Well thank you!
I can see there is much more to it than just “coloring your face to match skin tone of character you are trying to represent”.
The coloring itself has been historically used as a racist act.
So I get it now. My question now reads as “What is wrong with swastika - old symbol for sun” or something like that.
Once again, context. But depending on your audience, they may not know of any other context except the bad one. So while your intentions have nothing to do with what they perceive, it won’t matter.
There are some things that had a big negative impact in an isolated area and isolated point on our timeline, enough so things become stained.
Travelling internationally, you have to be aware of a culture’s history. Some things totally normal are very not normal in specific places and people of the world. I’ve learnt this as an Australian abroad. Many times I’ve learned something I couldn’t even imagine could be a thing, but fortunately most people make you aware first—assuming it happens a lot with trabellers—or have seen my face confused and then drop as it’s explained to me. People are generally very nice after a, “I’m so sorry. And thank you, I’ll make sure I remember that.”
Not an American, I would guess that blackface in particular looks more like a roughly made mock. And then I can see why mocking others based on skin colour can be seen as racist.
I would say that tanning usually looks more natural (even in failed cases), that’s why it would not be seen as racism, in worst case it would look like a person made a laughing stock of themselves in case of poorly applied tanner.
Then again, it is still just a guess, as I am not from the US
Nahh… May be true in other cases (in extremes you have everything).
But not in this case.
As have others explained due to historical use of this act, the act itself is offensive.
Like using swastika as an ancient symbol of sun. People will perceive it as nazi symbol no matter what are your intentions.
I wouldn’t say that’s an american thing, plenty of politicians in Europe had blackface scandals in the last couple of decades and every year, the topic also comes up around Christmas (NL) and Three Kings Parades (ES).
I used word “personally”. I just added European for a context. I know a lot of Europeans know a lot of stuff. I myself just do not know a lot of stuff.
(And yes I know I could probably express myself better. I have never been good with English.)
I knew it is considered racist - and would be considered racist also in Europe. I just did not know why. I believed reason for it being racist came from american history. This is why I asked Americans.
I have encountered this “American social issues transplanted” hand waving a lot in Europe. For example, I know a lot of Swedes who say this about a bunch of casually racist stuff (proclaiming Sweden to be very anti-racist). Meanwhile up north you see a lot of Classic American cars which are often casually emblazoned with Confederate flags and even displayed in proximity to Nazi memorabilia. Down south you have a rising right-wing party support fuelled by fear of immigrants from Africa/Middle East (eg. The non-white ones).
I understand you’re trying to educate yourself and that’s great, don’t take this as dunking on you more, as I feel like you’re in the smart minority by trying to learn and reason. It just really bugs me when I hear people say it’s a US problem. A lot of Europe is holding a lot of racist views (and in a lot of cases, horrific colonial history) and then turn around to say things like “why are my football players kneeling, BLM is an American issue”.
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Without seeing the picture, what I can say is that when I go to African countries I dress like the people there because I identify with them.
I think it’s only bad If you mock them.
Why if people paint themselves as if they were people of type X is bad, but when men dress themselves as a women it’s not bad? That’s contradictory.
What might answer your question is that IF in a country people traditionally paint themselves as X to mock X, then the natural reaction would be to classify it negatively.
But in a country or in a time where people do this out of identification, I don’t see it as a problem.
Morals are specific to countries and times, it’s not universal and atemporal
Because intellectually lazy people want simple ways to decide if something is good/bad without having to actually think about a specific situation themselves.
Are you asking if coloring your face is generally racist? Or are you asking about that particular photo? If you’re asking about that particular photo and you can’t tell, then idk how you can’t tell
Let’s start with some facts.
Race is a political concept. It has no scientific basis so it’s not possible to declare any given person as white, black or whatever.
On the other hand, it is abundantly obvious from outward appearances that some individuals genetic heritage is geographically rooted. Those differences were used to create the political narrative of racism that justified the exploitation of Africa, America, etc. Among the many colonial-era atrocities were genocide and slavery.
There’s a lot of guilt and shame around this topic for white people, particularly white Americans. I’m not convinced that black people care more about blackface than white people do. I personally don’t have a problem with blackface or whiteface but I wouldn’t do it. There’s not much to gain and I don’t want to upset people. I felt uncomfortable enough dressing up as woman (I’m a European white guy) because I looked ridiculous, dressing as a black woman might be a bridge too far for me.
This is a good explanation of racism.
But this is not the reason coloring yourself with skin color of another person is considered racist.
As have others explained it is due to racist use of this practice.
In addition to the other comments, we should note that the photo in question is referencing the OJ Simpson murder case, a very high profile and racially charged trial among the public in the U.S.
It’s racist because it’s racist. It has historically been used in a racist manner, and that’s socially recognized. So, if you do it now, it’s interpreted as racist.
(Much like the swastika is a hate symbol because the swastika is a hate symbol. It has been used as such and now it’s socially recognized as such (even though there’s nothing inherently bad about a bunch of geometric lines (and, in fact, was a positive symbol for the first 5,000 years of its use)).)
The swastika is still a positive symbol in Asia. In northern India for example: https://vajiramias.com/current-affairs/project-swastik/5e76ddb61d5def05d74372f2/
Let’s reclaim it then, use both Swastikas and blackface as positive symbols. Continuing to refrain from them because you think someone might interpret it the wrong way does nothing to normalise them again, if that is a long-term goal.
I’ll take “questions that are never asked in good faith” Alex!
Yes. How did you know. 🤦♂️ I genuinely wanted to know why is this act considered racist. And got explained very well in the comments - no thanks to you.
Not everyone is western.
Imo cuz people are too PC (Politically Correct) buthurt lately.
I’d even flip the tables, and call it racist if you won’t allow other races to dress up / admire your own race.
Ofc doing it to make fun / be a dick about other races is not okay.
I believe it is very well explained in the comments.
Blackface being incredibly racist is not because we are too PC.
Imagine white people calling a black woman racist for dressing up like Marilyn Monroe, that’s bs.
Or black people calling a white child racist for wanting to dress up like Martin Luther King, since the child sees him as a hero of the past.
It all comes down to your acts when you’re dressed up, or the people you dress up as.
Those can be either offensive,
or innocent.
When your grandparents were young, racism was still considered somewhat normal. And in cartoons, popular media, etc… there was a particular depiction of people with a dark skin tone that was used in a derogatory manner.
Recreating this appearance on someone’s face was later termed “blackface”. And less complete variants of it are still considered offensive by some.
I can’t place myself in that perspective, but I think I’m lucky not to have been part of that culture.
Because of minstrel shows. These were only really in America, so it’s not part of European culture.
It wasn’t just minstrel shows, and the UK contributed, but for the most part you’re correct.
https://www.vox.com/2014/10/29/7089591/why-is-blackface-offensive-halloween-costume
Thank you! That helped a lot to expand knowledge of my ignorant ass :)
A couple links that’ll help:
Blackface
Minstrel Shows
Tl;Dr: blackface has an extremely racist history in the US and is almost universally frowned on, even if you’re doing it out of genuine admiration for a black person.
Well thank you! I can see there is much more to it than just “coloring your face to match skin tone of character you are trying to represent”. The coloring itself has been historically used as a racist act.
So I get it now. My question now reads as “What is wrong with swastika - old symbol for sun” or something like that.
@hostops and @MossyFeathers it’s so refreshing to read a sane sensible exchange on this subject for a change. Kudos to you both.
Once again, context. But depending on your audience, they may not know of any other context except the bad one. So while your intentions have nothing to do with what they perceive, it won’t matter.
There are some things that had a big negative impact in an isolated area and isolated point on our timeline, enough so things become stained.
Travelling internationally, you have to be aware of a culture’s history. Some things totally normal are very not normal in specific places and people of the world. I’ve learnt this as an Australian abroad. Many times I’ve learned something I couldn’t even imagine could be a thing, but fortunately most people make you aware first—assuming it happens a lot with trabellers—or have seen my face confused and then drop as it’s explained to me. People are generally very nice after a, “I’m so sorry. And thank you, I’ll make sure I remember that.”
Not an American, I would guess that blackface in particular looks more like a roughly made mock. And then I can see why mocking others based on skin colour can be seen as racist.
I would say that tanning usually looks more natural (even in failed cases), that’s why it would not be seen as racism, in worst case it would look like a person made a laughing stock of themselves in case of poorly applied tanner.
Then again, it is still just a guess, as I am not from the US
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Nahh… May be true in other cases (in extremes you have everything). But not in this case. As have others explained due to historical use of this act, the act itself is offensive.
Like using swastika as an ancient symbol of sun. People will perceive it as nazi symbol no matter what are your intentions.
European here, I do understand whats wrong with the picture and Im very sorry.
Please elaborate.
Good for you. Or something…
I hope you feel good about yourself. Knowing stuff and all. God forbid you share your knowledge with us who know nothing. /s
I wouldn’t say that’s an american thing, plenty of politicians in Europe had blackface scandals in the last couple of decades and every year, the topic also comes up around Christmas (NL) and Three Kings Parades (ES).
Edit less snarky and corrected some info
I used word “personally”. I just added European for a context. I know a lot of Europeans know a lot of stuff. I myself just do not know a lot of stuff.
(And yes I know I could probably express myself better. I have never been good with English.)
I knew it is considered racist - and would be considered racist also in Europe. I just did not know why. I believed reason for it being racist came from american history. This is why I asked Americans.
I have encountered this “American social issues transplanted” hand waving a lot in Europe. For example, I know a lot of Swedes who say this about a bunch of casually racist stuff (proclaiming Sweden to be very anti-racist). Meanwhile up north you see a lot of Classic American cars which are often casually emblazoned with Confederate flags and even displayed in proximity to Nazi memorabilia. Down south you have a rising right-wing party support fuelled by fear of immigrants from Africa/Middle East (eg. The non-white ones).
I understand you’re trying to educate yourself and that’s great, don’t take this as dunking on you more, as I feel like you’re in the smart minority by trying to learn and reason. It just really bugs me when I hear people say it’s a US problem. A lot of Europe is holding a lot of racist views (and in a lot of cases, horrific colonial history) and then turn around to say things like “why are my football players kneeling, BLM is an American issue”.
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